A passionate mountain biker, hiker and general nature addict. If youre a minimalistic cockpit fiend, then you can utilize Maguras aftermarket brake-lever clamps to integrate with Shimano or SRAM shifters. It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society. There was less rear brake to help skid around some corners and more emphasis on using the front brakes to scrub most of the speed and focusing more on modulating the rear to avoid any unnecessary skidding. It may not display this or other websites correctly. I've had the shop bleed them twice in 200kms since new. The XT's lever blades are a bit thinner. A small but nice touch. Components - Brakes. Go with Magura. R rsilvers Well-known member Dec 2, 2018 283 242 US Oct 31, 2019 #3 Switched to it when I broke a magura lever. If you want 4 pot / 2 pot just go Hope E4 up front and X2 rear with Tech 3 levers. Which seems to happen more than it should because I always underestimate how fast they wear. Another thing about the Maguras is that you need to use their hydro fluid and their rotors. MAGURA MT: Installation. So you assembled your own MT Trail Sport system? First ride review of the Mondraker DUSTY XR 2023 e-gravel bike for trail surfers and adventurers, The 9Barista Espresso Machine Premium espresso to-go, Master Material: Carbotecture, Flip-Flop-Design, Brake Fluid: Royal Blood (mineral oil-based). And heck, it has plenty of friction for slow and stopping my bike on pavement. Photo: Jason Lorch. Brake pads are not "parts", they better damn be available, or what, you throw out the brake after you wear down some pads? Press J to jump to the feed. The Race pads are a step up in braking from Performance and a leap from Comfort. If your brake is designed to use one system, you cannot switch as your gaskets and seals will be damaged. Grab a mate, a partner, a pet and head out into nature. The magura hose inner diameter is bigger so you are pushing more oil than the XT levers usually push. (Basically the same brakes except MT4 rear caliper, which if you . Another plus is that royal blood is touted to be more environmentally friendly compared to competitors. Excellent modulation and raw stopping power. The MT Trail Sport brakes are akin to Frankensteins monster, with a mixed piston set up for front and rear and similar levels of strength in terms of stopping power, but thats where the similarities end. **front + rear, w/o rotors. (his son) are inscribed on his top tube as a gentle warning against unruly riding. Together with his young family and two crazy dogs, you will almost always find him outdoors. They work fine. 2 reviews for the price of almost one and I get to keep my short levers! MAGURAs proven trail concept is a price/performance miracle compared to other brake packages on the market. The two-piston MT4 variety is on call for skid duty out back. . Its the little things like this that we really appreciate about Magura. MT7 Pros on fast bikes that go down hill, and Trails on anything else. It felt like there was too much, I expected similar power from other 2 piston brakes on the market. [Forum] NSMB - 2023 - Hardtails Leaning Against Stuff Thread. With so many good mineral oil brakes on the market, its time manufacturers moved away from the toxic DOT alternatives. MAGURA MT: Installation. Yeah, there's no reason for the spongy. I don't have any experience with the MT5s but I do have experience with MT7s ,the SLX and the new 2 piston XT's. 1 set (caliper + lever) of Hope E4 or X2 = 2 sets (caliper + lever) of Magura Trail Sport. Shimano XT BR-M8100 Disc Brake $109.00 SAVE 36 %. I also do want to replace https://testmyspeed.onl/ the pads. Priced at: $330.00 .approx (without rotors). The Race pads make this as good as any two-piston brake on the market in terms of feel and power. Are you kidding? I bleed my own brakes and recently didn't do the best job. I have the MT trail sports, they are a mix of a 4pot mt5 at the front and a 2 pot mt4 at the back. Become a supporter now! Disc temperatures reached over 400 C during this savage test, and fade was evident in most brakes gas produced from hot pad resin decreasing friction. * Magura combines the same injection-molded Carbotecture master cylinder found on the MT Trail Sport setup I've tested previously, and the 4-piston MT 5 brakes that I've owned for years, with a basic 2-piston caliper which, quite remarkably at this price, is still a one-piece unit. Magura MT - Shortening the Tubing. The 203mm front and 180mm rear provide plenty of stopping power. Comfort pads installed out back. At the affordable end of the market, the SRAM Guide T disappointed testers with its low power, while the Shimano Deore delivered the same great value as ever. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. *per brake (exept Maguras MT Trail which have different calipers for front and rear and thereforeonly come as a set Magura MT Trail Sport HC 1-Finger Disc Brake Set MAGURA's new definition of trail braking performance at an affordable price. Shimano Deore BR-M6120 Disc Brake . Cost-saving calipers. Frankenstein was a story (sorry, folks) but this is reality! Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, Sunshine Coast - Canada 2021 Forbidden Druid, Brakes are for people who lack commitment, Trek Session / YT Capra / Orbea Rise / PBJ. Oh I got mine from Star Bike very reasonable. Way more modulation, stopping power, and just as smooth. New shared architecture Drivetrain components from Shimano. | Budget Hardtail MTB Build (EP 1), 2022 Norco Bikes MTB Line Up Review (Bikemas Day 14), 2022 Propain Bikes MTB Line Up Review (Bikemas Day 13), 2022 Fezzari Bikes MTB Line Up Review (Bikemas Day 12). If you want to use the HC rotors (as they do offer better heat management being thicker) ensure you open the reservoir bolt on the lever when resetting the pistons (you will have to do this a few times to line them up properly) to reduce any unnecessary pressure on the piston bladders. Shimano has an inconsistent bite point on a lot of their brakes. Les meilleures offres pour Magura Storm Rohloff Disque Frein Rotor 180mm 4-Bolt Argent sont sur eBay Comparez les prix et les spcificits des produits neufs et d 'occasion Pleins d 'articles en livraison gratuite! For those looking for the best all-rounder, with enough power to haul down high-speed mistakes with gentle finesse, then the new SRAM Code brakes tick every box. What is it about the xt levers that is better than maguras? It usually takes about 10 runs to get the brakes feeling right. Nonetheless, demonstrating that you can teach an old dog new tricks, he continues to hold his own against the wild and fearless youth. The good performance and expensive looks of the 124 Formula Cura take the Best Value Award. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, Colorado.Evil Offering V2,Commencal Absolut. Interested in experience with the Maguras also. Min-Max, Shimano I-Spec I+II, SRAM Matchmaker, Shimano I-Spec EV: PU: Set: Service . I hope you find what youre looking for , I run shiguras. Disastrous change in geometry or not? Do you like modulation (Magura) or instant brake (XT) feel. The sram levels on my 19 Levo keep going spongy. I will keep my Trail Sport review brief as it was a short affair, but I did learn a lot (I will go into detail in the MT5 review). Come join the discussion about bike parts, components, deals, performance, modifications, classifieds, trails, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! Changing front fork travel from 170 to 180. I was even quite happy with rear brake performance combined with a 180mm rotor. I've got 180/180 on my 140mm bike. Besides being accustomed to bad weather he's a specialist when it comes to steep and demanding trails. Photo: Jason Lorch, Spurcycle Silicone Grips Accessory Review, FIRST LOOK SENDHIT Stanchion Scratch Repair, Backcountry Mutherload Strap Accessory Review. MAGURA Schijfrem MT5 voor of achter zonder schijf voor onverslaanbare prijzen! After riding the brakes for a while, I can swap out the rear caliper with an MT5 one and boom! Moving up from 180 mm to 200 mm rotor not only results in an average 18% decrease in deceleration times in our testing, but the brake also requires a lighter touch, minimising arm pump, fatigue and improving modulation. Having tried the MT7 race pads, the performance pads definitely feel like they have less bite and a bit less power, however they were definitely more usable in more trail situations where I preferred the less grabby feel. Riding fast is one of the best feelings: we argue over KOMs in the pub and agonise over reviews telling us we need a bigger wheel size to keep up with our buddies. Some of the brakes would initially deliver high braking torques, but within a second, as the pad heated up, braking torque would fall off dramaticallythis is all due to the efficiency of the pad material. We recommend a minimum of 200/180 mm for general riding. Click here and see how they are made! What are you guys impression of the difference between these brakes? If your brakes are struggling and you are running small rotors, increasing to the next size will improve performance. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Call me boring, but I liked it when Magura's brake lineup was neatly organized by ascending numbers. Trevor loves adventure. When needing to quickly scrub speed, the bite on the MT Trail Sport did not disappoint. A lot of power with high modulation. customisable and powerful trail brakes, just be aware of bleeding issues . My last tip is when it comes to tightening up the brake clamp. The 280 USD Trail Sport system can go up against brakes that cost twice as much, including any that Magura makes. It is easy to compare brakes in the same way as we would compare a cars performance: more power = more performance, right? Magura MT Trail Sport Disc Brake 4yJ8A-m33979159738 - > > ()2~3 ,, . Magura is half the price of Shimano. Then the 4+2 piston MT Trail SL system came along and combined a 6 & 7, the MT Trail Sport was a lower priced trail hybrid of the 4 & 5, and now there a couple of named brakes at the top and bottom of the line-up. Ive used this setup for a couple years and it is fantastic. Stock pads on the 4 & 5 are Performance I believe. Whether it's teaching Brook to ride trails, hammering out gravel loops, surfing, skiing or canoeing, hell be there no matter the weather, like a true Scotsman. I did this wrong and I broke the clamp in a crash, which could have been avoided If I did this properly. The MTTS feel a bit less grabby than the XT. But, the Levels have other issues, like no adjustability. As a reminder of his new role as a father, the words Think about Brook." We ran the MT Trail Sport brakes on a long-travel 29er hardtail. About 60-80% of the control and stopping power comes from our front brake. MAGURAs proven trail concept is a price/performance miracle compared to other brake packages on the market. ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine is published in a digital app format in both English and German. Warranty and customer service sucks. Copyright 2023 ENDURO Mountainbike Magazine. JavaScript is disabled. Lokal. Or is it just the lever blade with the Magura cylinder? Perches can adapt to SRAM or Shimano direct-mount controls. Power, we know, is important, but what is more important is how the brake doses out that power on the trail: modulation and reliability are king. Brakes are gonna be my next upgrade..I don't like the Code R's at all and am fed up of them squealing when warm and very on/off Bike Discount has got a very good price on them: Alert: that set is max 180mm at the rear! Both have 1-finger levers, come with all the bolts&bits, it comes down to quality/functionality I guess. Magura USA website has good stock and prices. eBay Kleinanzeigen - Kostenlos. Photo: Jason Lorch, The brake pads are super-easy to replace with the magnetic snap-in system. Growler 40, The best brakes will deliver a consistent braking torque, resulting in fast deceleration from speed. I have MT7s on my Specialized Stumpy. From the ultimate nightmare to an inspiring recovery. Magura Magura MT Trail Sport Pair of disc Brake (without disc) Black Verkocht door Alltricks 149,99 Richtprijs: 219,90 . There are lots of old-but-good mountain bikes, and entry-level performance mountain bikes out there in need of new binders for a wide variety of reasons. Thanks for your input, RS VR6! The Maguras use 2.0mm rotors so do NOT use 1.8mm rotors like Shimano, SRAM, etc. Good brake pad material is the essential ingredient for powerful deceleration, sintered pads use metal shavings for maximum performance on long runs, while organic pads have a very powerful bite. I had to re-bleed them a week later because they got spongy. The main one is getting the pads to stop rubbing. I ride mostly all mountain and trail. https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/magura-mt5-mt4-carbotecture-r-disk-brake-set-566442. It's not rocket science, but it makes a good brake evenbetter. Video. Be aware that the MT7 and MT5 calipers are identical (sans color, obv). Iniciar sesin; Crear una cuenta; Bienvenido, Iniciar sesin o Crear una cuenta. No matter how good the levers, or how large the pistons, all the braking forces are transferred by the brake pads onto the discs. I doubt it. I can make a strong argument for Performance with the four-pistons. Anchor awaay! Tires were standardised to the excellent Maxxis Minion DHF/DHRII and thousands of kilometers of trail were shredded. MT Trail brakes are offered with either carbon or aluminum lever blades (reviewed), and weigh 660 grams for the pair. What size rotors are you running? Price as reviewed: For 188 you get a full set of Magura MT Trail Sport brakes complete with stainless steel rotors (25) and adapters (8.50). I'm also a bit of a muso and enjoy a good craft beer every now and again (probably too often). They make multiple compounds compatible with these brakes including the 'Perfomance' level pads I usually run and the 'Race' pads that I installed up front on these Trails. Even on steep sections, the range of modulation allows for much more controlled descending, when needed. Lever style may not suit all riders tastes. Ive already decided if the damn things break again to pull them off and sell. I hope what we do here at Tyres and Soles will inspire people to get out there and experience first hand, the natural wonders that surround them. The lever body is made from what Magura calls 'Carbotecture', which looks to be a carbon-infused composite. Thanks for the honest input. Digital & free: The 9Barista Espresso Machine Premium espresso to-go. Personally, I found the small bit of lever flex provided a little bit of modulation but as soon as you pressed the lever down hard the blunt force of the brakes can be felt. Also just switched to a Shigura set up with Deore levers and MT7 calipers. Download the app for iOS or Android to read all articles on your tablet or smartphone. The brakes use mineral oil, however it is important to use Maguras own Royal Blood mineral oil, as other brands will damage the lines. I prefer the shorter lever found on the trail sport series brakes. 1 set (caliper + lever) of Hope E4 or X2 = 2 sets (caliper + lever) of Magura Trail Sport. Photo: Jason Lorch, The Magura MT Trail Sport are easy on the eye. I think you'll be fine with either brake. Your email address will not be published. Sold by Red Photon and ships from Amazon Fulfillment. Shimano Shimano XT M8100 Resin J-Kit Achterrem . MAGURA's proven trail concept is a price/performance miracle. I run Maguras MT7's on my Slash. With the latest crop of 4 piston brakes growing lighter and more affordable, is this the end of the lightweight twin piston brake? Magura's MT Trail brake system is not going to impress ham-fisted riders who use the rear wheel like a rudder to mash down steeps. Photo: Jason Lorch, The levers are super-light and ergonomically designed with lever reach adjustment screws. MT Trail Sport. The trail sport brakes use a 4 piston MT5 caliper at the front with an MT4, 2 piston caliper in the rear. Min-Maxing, Shimano MT501 + MT520 . The lever compresses the master cylinder vertically versus horizontally (on the same plane) compared to most brakes (if that makes sense). With braking, I want as much power for the money. I suppose you could start by going back and re-reading the responses to your original post. As we rolled into steep, often blind, roll downs, the MT Trail Sport provided us with plenty of confidence to slowly creep forward, inch by inch, with total control. nothing else is even close. Installing new pads is a breeze due to the magnetic design that snap the pads into place. Become an ENDURO supporter and lets shape the bike scene together and make mountain biking even better! Magura offers their top-shelf MT Trail Carbon brakes for around $650 per set (rotors and mounting brackets sold separately); however the MT Trail Sport set utilizes the same 42 piston setup at a sliver of the price. Here's a link to a comment overviewing the HOW I hope that workslol. Magura MT Trail sport Magura is said in general to be more aggressive (on/off wise), whereas Shimano is said to have a better sensitivity (for the wheelies & manuals when you have to hit that brake just very lightly). For most riding a standard dual up front will be just fine. Comfort in blue, the Performance pads I usually run are grey, and the Race pads are gold. JavaScript is disabled. Disc brakes now have it harder than ever before: were riding faster, tires bite harder, and the trails we ride are getting tougher. Ive also found some of the Shimano ZEE 4 pots on Ebay for 230$ or so. We would never compromise braking performance in an effort to save weight and its time we stop confining powerful brakes to downhill bikes. I've got the Trail Sport and XT brakes (m785). Magura MT Trail Sport Brake Set $278.10 SAVE 10 %. With more and more elite riders using the MT7s there must be something good going on. Sure enough they burped a big bubble when I did. Saints on my Kenevo super powerful and so bloody easy to bleed ! Want bonus stopping power? Only 7 left in stock - order soon. Now I dont have a spongy feel or long leaver travel. Are you with us? Another question, is it ok to use shimano rotors with the Magura brakes? Top bike-handlers with well developed braking technique, however, will appreciate the balance and enhanced modulation that asymmetric calipers bring to their games. At least with the Guide or Code they have the reach adjustment knob and my DeSlackinators will work with them. It has to be Race pads up front with any Magura two-piston system. Magura is cheaper than Hope. Photo:Jason Lorch. At around 135 euros for the PAIR, I don't think magura mt trail sport can be beaten in the budget category. Magura MT8 vs XTR M9000 ? No, not really. For those who live in the Alps, carry excess weight or simply hunger for brute power, the Magura MT7 and Shimano Saint models are hard to beat for value and power. Pastillas de freno Galfer ebike para frenos de 4 pistones Shimano XT, Shimano XTR, Shimano Saint, Shimano ZEE, Tektro, TRP Quadiem, SL y Slate T4. The 30-15 km/h deceleration time is very representative of high-speed riding, and is far more informative a result than the power figures alone. Demands on disc brakes have changed, new players have entered the scene and the status quo has been disrupted. All levers were wound out to the maximum and bite point set as far out as possible. MT2, 4, 6, and 8 for the two-piston systems and MT5, and 7 for the four-piston systems. MAGURA MT Trail Sport. The brakes come stock with Carbotecture clamps. We looked into whether they managed to master this [], From what we learned in our most recent reader survey, 14,000 of you really, really rate good coffee and travel. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Shimano XT M8120 Trail Magura MT Trail Sport Shimano MT501 + MT520 3 reviews 5 reviews 17 reviews 0 reviews Composition: Set / Front brake / Rear brake: Set / Front brake / Rear brake: Set: Set / Front brake / Rear brake . For those who love smooth modulation, then the TRP Quadiem, Hope and SRAM Guide offer the most linear deceleration. Over two days, we challenged each brake on Hope Technologys computer controlled dynamometer. It depends on you really. $22.99. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. They dont feel as touchy as Shimano brakes, which tend to have an on/off feeling but there is a small bit of modulation at the beginning of the stroke, so you dont always scrub off too much speed when a light touch is needed. Benefits? So far, stopping power of the 9000s doesn't seem quite as good as the 988s, but I haven't installed a set new, or worked extensively on them. Similar names aside, these Sport brakes shouldn't be confused with the MT Trail Sport brakes I've tested at purchase time. Loose surfaces, weather conditions and endless lines make direct comparison impossible. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Magura has packed a ton of value into the MT Trail Sport brakes, without sacrificing performance. $96.99. With the DUSTY, the Spanish brand are taking a new direction in 2023, launching their first e-gravel bike. The difference between a SRAM Guide and SRAM Code is only about 20-30g, nothing in real world terms, but the Code model is a step up in performance. The only brakes i have ever ridden that are anywhere near them are the new hayes 4pots. Magura's MT Sport brings an easy to service brake with most of the features of their more expensive options including compatibility with a variety of ShiftMix adapters for SRAM and Shimano, excellent power for a two-piston system with the right pads, and an excellent power curve at the lever. They're still one piece for added stiffness but they don't use Magura's position-adjustable bolt-on brake line. XT levers, magura barb, shimano olive, Magura hose. I run 203mm front and 180mm rear. The MT Trail Sport set utilizes the same 42 piston setup at a sliver of the price. The Magura MT Trail Sport, pound for pound, one of the best performing brake setups. Punching in as Magura's lowest-priced brake is this MT Trail at 80 USD per wheel. I think ease of maintenance would go to Shimano. Each brake was subjected to the same torturous protocol using the manufacturers own 180 mm rotor. Would hate to have to buy another set. Initially, I was impressed with the ergonomics of the levers. German brand Magura has been in the brake business for quite some time - over a hundred years on the motorsports side - and while they may not hold the same chunk of OEM sales that the red and. Ensure you tighten the top up to 4nm first and then the bottom to 4nm. Will Semi-Finals Change the DNA of World Cup DH Racing? They are roughly the same price and both have 4 pistons each end. I am having trouble deciding which setup to go with however. MT Trail brakes have a five-year leak proof warranty, largely made possible by the precise fitting components inside its fiber-reinforced, injection-molded master cylinder. DVO appreciation and support thread (AKA the Ced Thread) - Pics, ride reports and discussion, The Sexiest AM/FR/Enduro Hardtail Thread (Please read the opening post), Bleeding Disc Brakes for the first time, seeking info, Post Your Road Bikes (Read 1st post for guide), Rad retro MTB stuff [MTB of any discipline], SantaCruz Bikes up to 25% off & NO SALES TAX at Owenhouse Bikes Bozeman Montana, Report Scammers on Pinkbike HERE *Read 1st Post* then contact captainbringdown directly, Crunching 3 easiest gears on Shimano Saint drivetrain. Parts for Shimano brakes are pretty common. Is there there a better dual piston brake on the market? Shimano Consolidates Entry- to Mid-Level Groupsets With New CUES Drivetrains, Opinion: Five Things The Bike Industry Could Do Better, Throwback Thursday: A Brief History of Direct Mount Derailleurs, Buying a Bike From a Shop Versus Buying Online, DH Bike Review: Canfield's Jedi Masters Rough Terrain, Review: Mythos 3D-Printed Titanium Stem is My Kind of Excess, DH Bike Review: Orange 279 - A Staple of British Downhill Racing, www.hibike.com/magura-mt-trail-carbon-carbotecture-sl-disc-brakes-set-front-wheel-pm-rear-wheel-pm-left-right-mountable-without-disc-adapter-black-chrome-2017-p2114a624f82cf9d9c28479ee7d28734e, www.bikeradar.com/mtb/gear/category/components/disc-brake-systems/product/magura-mt5-review-51215. Quick-Fit Adapters are designed to work with Jagwire Pro Hydraulic Hose Continental Trail King Continental Argotal . Shimano every time ! Born out of experimentation, the Magura riders and employees often mixed and matched Maguras four- and two-piston options to suit their riding style and intended use, so the German brand decided to bring a mismatched setup to market. Have thought of it actually! Over the last 4 months, our test team has been putting 19 of the leading disc brakes to the test through rain and shineeven a little snow: warped rotors, boiling fluid, glazed pads, there has been nowhere to hide. So on went the MT5 caliper in the rear. Oddjob Can hench anywhere any time Jan 1, 2018 #5 Shimano really screwed the pooch with the m8000s. Gear, But tell us all about it when you get back. Its good to save weight on a bike, but its where you save weight thats most important. The rear caliper is also top loading but has two conventional rectangular pads. Braking, like most aspects of life, is a personal thing: some like their brakes to initially engage with the smoothness of two greased feathers pressing against the disc, while others like to feel deceleration as violent as a chain strung between the trees. Gambling on the Retrogrouch - Shimano XT LinkGlide M8130. Thanks for all of the replies thus far, I appreciate the responses! Magur MT trail sport vs Shimano Trail sport Magura is half the price of Shimano. Thats good: it confirms weve got similar interests, so youll probably agree that roadside coffee or even foreign coffee isnt always that satisfying. Over 4 months our test team fitted brakes to their test bikes using 200/180 mm rotors. Crossing the streams is the best of both worlds, but it's a bit of work to get it setup. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Then pumping the leaver till the pads meet in the middle. A smooth linear modulation that curves up to a very strong bite. The rest of the ride was a real training exercise. At the same time, they also try to remain true to their downhill genes. Pound for pound, the MT Trail Sport is a winner and a braking system you'd be hard pushed to look past. Both offer 4-pot front + 2-pot rear caliper. The MT Trail Sport brakes are akin to Frankenstein's monster, with a mixed piston set up for front and rear and similar levels of strength in terms of stopping power, but that's where the similarities end. My 2020 Levo Level T brakes are also a big letdown. Features learn more The new MAGURA VYRON MDS-V3 Up front was another matter. I have both and both are great. I fine tuned the Caliper using 5he hols to reseat-it in alignment with the disk. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Though he was born in England, he believes he should have been Scottish. Video. The1-finger HC aluminium lever bladehas been ergonomically optimised and is now also suitable for riders with somewhat smaller hands. It is impossible to push powerful brakes consistently to the limit on the trail. What you get with the MT Sport Trail is a system that has been designed from numerous Magura riders mixing different piston combinations to dial in the best braking system. They make the MT Trail bite like a Formula Cura, which is my benchmark for two-piston systems, but with a more gentle initialization that some riders will prefer.
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